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sebasaliastatan (November 30th, 2008 @ 9:18 pm)

muy bueno......

wcbroccoli (November 29th, 2008 @ 6:47 pm)

You think you can redeem yourself by attempting to put me on the spot? How silly. I've already disproved YOUR claims about Bach, which is what began this discourse. Now it's now up to YOU to disprove my claims about "mulier tacet in ecclesia" and women in opera in Italy since the Early Baroque. FYI: Opera began in Italy, not in Shakespeare's Elizabethan England (which was Late Renaissance, not Early Baroque), and Italy wasn't bound by English laws or customs.

wcbroccoli (November 29th, 2008 @ 6:23 pm)

Originally you claimed "[Bach's] true genius lies in the fact that women weren't even aloud to perform in those times..." But Bach's 2nd wife was a paid singer. Then you claimed you meant "[Bach's] true genius lies in the fact that women weren't even aloud to perform OPERA in those times..." But Bach, who lived in the Late Baroque, never wrote an opera! Never mind the fact that Faustina Bordoni was a celebrated Baroque opera soprano. Your claims about Bach have been disproved.

kudasango (November 29th, 2008 @ 5:20 pm)

prove it. I have no clue where you are getting your info from, but women were NOT allowed to sing opera in the early baroque period. Just take a look at Shakespeare's theatrical work, women were not allowed to perform in those either. And the biblical injunction that you recite so religiously just makes you sound like a broken record: prove it, or stop replying.

ieatfrenchfries (November 29th, 2008 @ 1:10 pm)

oh i see... my mistake then

wcbroccoli (November 28th, 2008 @ 9:56 pm)

"Freude" is feminine, so why would you add an "n" to form the dative? Is that "altdeutsch"? "Mit Freude" would be grammatically correct for "with joy". "Freuden" is plural. "mit Freuden" is literally "with joys", but I think it may be used idiomatically to mean "willingly" or "cheerfully". "Nun wünsch ich, noch heute mit Freuden Von hinnen zu scheiden" may be translated as "Now I wish even today to depart cheerfully from this place."

wcbroccoli (November 28th, 2008 @ 9:13 pm)

You're wrong again, for the 3rd time in a row. 3 strikes and you're out. The biblical injunction, "mulier tacet in ecclesia" means "a woman shall be silent in church", not "a woman shall be silent in opera". Opera began in Italy around 1600 (also the start of Baroque). Almost immediately women were performing on the opera stage. In Elizabethan England women's roles in plays were performed by men. I don't know how long this custom persisted.

wcbroccoli (November 28th, 2008 @ 8:46 pm)

This discourse began with your claim that begin with "...[Bach's] true genius lies in the fact that women weren't even aloud to perform in those times..." I corrected you by pointing out that Bach's 2nd wife was employed as a singer. Then you said that you meant women weren't allowed to sing opera. I corrected you again, citing the example of Faustina Bordoni. Now you claim "Early and mid-baroque performance in opera DID NOT allow women to perform". You're wrong again.

kudasango (November 28th, 2008 @ 8:09 pm)

Late baroque (nearing it's end) is what it is: late. Early and mid-baroque performance in opera DID NOT allow women to perform. It's like comparing the early gothic scene to what it is now: it's changed a LOT. And, while I agree with you that Bach is the greatest, stop, go back, and support that opinion before declaring it as a truth. If it is based on the amount and quality of work, or simply one or the other. I'd say that Handel's operas one-up some of Bach's work.

wcbroccoli (November 28th, 2008 @ 7:56 pm)

Handel, one of the great Baroque composers, died in 1759. The greatest of all Baroque composers, Johann Sebastian Bach, died in 1750, which is generally considered to mark the formal end of the era of Baroque musical styles.

wcbroccoli (November 28th, 2008 @ 7:48 pm)

You're wrong once again. The era of Baroque music styles covers approximately the years from 1600 to 1750, which is the year J.S. Bach died. Hasse and his wife Faustina Bordoni, the celebrated opera singer, debuted his opera Cleofide in Dresden in 1731.

kudasango (November 28th, 2008 @ 7:18 pm)

if I'm not mistaken, it ended in the early 1700s, that is.